Email Response to Katherine (Katie)
Since the FAQ covers most questions, we don’t respond to every email. However, for anyone wishing to have an honest dialog on this subject, we do try to respond.
Recently someone posted on her blog that we did not answer her questions. Here is our response to her questions.
I am just curious why some new converts such as myself are now finding out that there is some condemnation in Christ? I was married briefly ten years ago. I was married at a local court house. I never knew of marriage as a covenant. Neither myself nor my former husband were ‘religious.’ Within a couple of weeks of the ‘marriage’ we had a minor argument and my now ex said he wanted a divorce. I had a major addiction to meth amphetamines which began to spiral out of control at this time and after the continuing threats of divorce I finally threw my hands up. Fast forward ten years later. I have now taken college courses, beaten my addiction to drugs and I have a beautiful 8 month old son with my fiancé. Recently I did accept Jesus into my life only to stumble across your website. I come from a long line of brokenness. Divorce and remarriage in my family is a common occurrence. I am forever expected to forfeit one of God’s gifts because in the past I made a really stupid decision? I am sincerely asking this question so before I hear that remarriage is comparable to homosexuality and murder let me just say that neither of those are ‘gifts’ from God. My faith is not enough to save me? I must also remain unmarried? If marriage is supposed to mimic salvation how can this be if two people are unsaved? Why must my son suffer for my mistakes? Why will God send me to hell for trying to break the chains of brokenness and provide my child with the life that I assume your children have? Why are the people coming out of the world to follow Christ now expected to go back and apply God’s laws to certain areas of their lives where it may not make sense? Why is the government allowed to marry individuals and make that ‘vow’ solemn in God’s eyes and yet they are not allowed to truly divorce people? In retrospect I see that someone should have educated me beforehand and this is where I feel like the Church has failed miserably
by not fighting harder to take marriage back. People wouldn’t go to the courthouse to be baptized and yet the Church says that the governments marriages are sufficient? I see how your respond to the people on your website and instead of pointing my to all of the Biblical references that I have read and reread let me just ask you is this the punishment that you would be willing to endure?
Katherine, I do understand how difficult this “message” is considering the mess society has gotten itself into regarding divorce/remarriage. You are right in that the professing Church has done TERRIBLY in representing the way of truth to the World. Instead of rightly representing Jesus and His Word, much of the “professing” Church today has instead succumbed to the flesh and followed sin instead of obedience and love.
Is salvation “worth” whatever the cost may be to be right with the Lord? That is a decision one can only make for themselves. For me, He is worth it……….and all the trials and temptations and persecutions are worth what not only NOW is peace with God, but eternally speaking what I will have with Him then. This life and all that is in it, if sin, is not worth losing my soul over.
I think when I read your letter the thing that stands out to me is that you do not understand marriage as God created it. Katherine, He knew ALL the sins YOU would ever commit…………all the sins your covenant husband would commit, yet He joined you together as ONE FLESH—for life, “no longer two” He says. The divorce did not dissolve or negate His Work. It still abides even though you and your husband are not together—the Lord sees you as ONE and desires for you to be abiding as ONE—IN HIM, no matter how long that takes. I know the road you WANT to take does not include your covenant husband, but as I said, as the scriptures speak, divorce did not dissolve your union. It is still intact in the Lord’s sight. To want to join with another man instead of your husband is adultery. I know you have a child together, but children do not legitimize relationships. God determines which relationships are valid in His sight and which are not. You are very blessed that you did not FIRST enter into an invalid marriage and then have MORE children, THEN see the truth. I know many who have gone down that road and it is even MORE painful to extract oneself from that situation—and even MORE painful for the children involved.
Many will try to tell you that you were unsaved at the time and your marriage doesn’t count. The problem with this errant teaching in many churches is that it is not based on scriptural truth. Jesus taught HIS marriage standards to ALL people, not just saved persons. His marriage laws apply to all humanity. Once He joins two as One flesh, they are one until one of them dies. Only then is the other free to marry again.
I pray, Katherine, that you truly seek His face on this. Don’t be led by your emotions, don’t take my word…………don’t take a pastor’s word. God to the Lord for HE is the one who has your life in His hands.
I never asked if salvation was ‘ worth’ it. I asked from a personal point of view would you be willing to endure this kind of punishment? My ex was not a legal citizen of the u.s. and I have no way of locating him. So what I am hearing is that my life is not hidden in Christ, I am not a new spiritual creation, there is some condemnation in Christ, the sacrifice on the cross was insufficient for breaking an ungodly marriage and the church does not have the power to bind and loose WHATEVER as stated twice in the book of Matthew. Awesome. One flesh in spirit with an unbeliever and yet what could be more one flesh than a child? This really defeats the whole come as you are mentality of Christianity.
From a personal point of view, yes, I would “suffer” for not doing whatever “I” wanted to do that the Lord showed me was sin……….and I would pray hard that He would change my heart/desire so that I WOULD want to walk by His Spirit, not my flesh.
The reality, Katherine, is that sometimes AFTER we come to Christ there are still some “messes” that need attention from our life before. Our conversion does not wipe away our previous life. There are some who have committed murder, gotten away with it, then after becoming converted CONFESSED and then were sentenced to prison. One man in particular was a youth pastor, married, with young children. Was he walking in CONDEMNATION because he suffered for the things he did IN HIS SINFUL past? No. He was walking in FREEDOM, though he was now bound—-because he did what was pleasing in the Lord’s sight.
Again, the issue for you is this: according to God’s Word—-is your first marriage STILL valid in His sight? That is what you need to come to an understanding of because if you don’t, and you go forward and then you get “revelation”, I fear you will be in an even more difficult predicament than you now are. I have seen the messes and it is heartbreaking…………..and yes, it all could have been prevented in the UNSAVED, now converted, if the professing Church hadn’t departed from
the ways of the Lord—and TAUGHT the unsaved that divorce was even an option (separation, yes, at times is necessary, but not divorce and certainly not remarriage (adultery)). The early church had it right and even the Catholic church has it “mostly” right—though now they too are going further and further away from the original teachings/practices of the Church as well. 🙁
You put the word ‘ suffer’ in quotations. This implies that you do not believe a life of celibacy is a tall if not impossible order. Where are the links on the website that offer support both emotional and financial to those you are telling to live as single parents? Again not all murders require a prison sentence either. Abortion is murder and this is a legal form of murder. To the person who loses salvation the church offers baptism, to the woman who has had an abortion the church offers forgiveness, to the person who has been divorced the church offers celibacy. Odd. You mentioned the early church and just so you know the orthodox Christian church does allow ‘remarriage.’ The early church also did not have to compete with the government.
Katherine, I put “suffer” in quotations because for some it may be “suffering” for others it is not suffering, but an act of obedience out of love. Is it a “tall
order”? Yes, but the Lord enables those who are “eunuchs” for the kingdom’s sake to endure and overcome.
Yes, abortion is murder and our laws allow it, unfortunately, so there is no earthly penalty to pay. Many times murder goes on in war too and there is no earthly penalty to pay, but if one is converted, one WILL repent of this.
You keep saying the “church” offers this or offers that. The Church is the Body of Christ—-they are not the HEAD. Forgiveness only comes through HIM, not the Body. As for support, there is a group of believers called the Spirit of Hosea who support each other—emotionally and yes, sometimes materially when they know each other and of their needs. In this group there are all kinds of people in varying marital situations—-but all have the same belief—marriage for life. There are divorced persons in this group (who will NOT remarry), there are people who have repented (forsaken) adulterous remarriages, there are once married peoples, singles, and widows.
As for me telling people to live celibate or stay single parents, I only share what the scriptures teach, Katherine. Believe me, I come from a very broken family so holding to the permanency of marriage view is not a comfortable stance, but I cannot deny the Words of the Lord or my own comfort.
Also, when I speak of the early church, I am not speaking of the present day orthodox church. I am speaking about the church of the first few centuries (pre 100ad-300ad). They did not believe in remarriage before the death of the spouse (even in the case of unrepentant adultery). They taught and practiced lifelong marriage and CELIBACY if one had a spouse who was off in adultery. Regarding “competing with the govt”—–that is neither here nor there. The govt’s laws never supersede God’s laws. We are told to obey the laws of the land, however, if those laws cause us to sin, we follow God’s laws. The early church did not want to compete with the govt, they wanted to follow Jesus and live peaceful lives. It was when the Christians started linking arms with the Govt and becoming part of the Govt in the 300’s (during Constantine’s rule and afterwards) that Christians started becoming more and more worldly in many different ways. Those who tried to cling to biblical/early Christianity were often the most persecuted.
Prison is an earthly punishment for sin. The church is now trying to bestow an earthly punishment for the sin of divorce. Jesus NEVER, not even once, handed down a punishment for previous sin. How can a person lose salvation if they believe in the Lord Jesus as I do? Besides don’t you think God is grieved that marriage, His original gift to man, has been stolen and basterdized? It was Gods gift to give, not any governing authority.
Yes, prison is an earthly punishment for sin, I agree. The Lord may have forgiven such a one, but there is still an earthly price to pay. His “godly” obligation was CONFESSION: and accepting the results of that CONFESSION. It was the GODLY act that lead to the earthly punishment. He didn’t bury his sin. He accepted that he was STILL out of the Will of God—and he took care of that in the right way in the Lord’s sight. Do you understand what I’m trying to convey?
Is God grieved about how marriage is now being treated? Absolutely. We as a people are UNFAITHFUL not only to our vows to our spouses (we won’t remain faithful unto death do us part), but also are unfaithful towards God—because we do not honor marriage as He created it and we do not desire to walk out marriage as He created it—trusting in Him. Instead, we go our own ways because we don’t like our situations, so we make “new” situations for ourselves—-situations the Lord says are sinful. The scriptures teach that “every man does what is right in his OWN sight” and today we see this very clearly—–in the churches and outside the churches. There no longer is a “standard of Godliness” which is acceptable.
Let me ask you a question, Katherine. Do you love Jesus enough to do the HARD thing? See, many today falsely teach that salvation is free. It is not. It costs us EVERYTHING. “it is no longer “I” that lives, but Christ who lives within me”. When we come to Jesus and receive His “gift”—we do not receive that gift unless we are willing to DIE to self. Jesus even told His disciples to “count the cost”. He also said, “whosoever seeks to save his life will lose it and whosoever loses his life for my sake will have life”. Again, if we want Jesus, we have to be willing to DIE. If we are not willing to die, but just want a “little Jesus” (all the good things that come with salvation, but none of the “hard things”), we will not have Him. When some of His disciples (in Jn 6:60-69) heard his “hard” teachings, it was too much for them to bear…………so they left Him (this was evidence that they really didn’t have faith). We also see Jesus addressing this same mindset towards the “hard” things He says in Mt. 19:10-12. The Rich Young Ruler was the same. When Jesus told him to sell all he had and give to the poor, he couldn’t do “THAT”! So he sadly walked away from Jesus.
See, we each have a “testimony”………..part of your testimony, Katherine, is your marriage. It was not a “mistake” as you think. God was in it—even though you and your husband were unsaved. I think you wrote because He is wanting to move in your life. He is wanting you to SEEK HIS FACE HARD. Nothing happens in our lives without His allowance. People we meet in our lives all have a place in our testimony—-either in a good way or an evil way—but all, if we belong to Him, used by Him to mold us and make us into His image. That is the goal for Him and should be our goal as well—to mirror Jesus. Think about this, Katherine: how does Jesus look at your husband? How did Jesus look at you in your unsaved, messed up state? Were you not worth something of great value to Him—even in your sin? YES. Now, think of this: When He joined you and your husband together, it was HIS WORK—the one flesh. He started with you…………and at this very moment, He very well could be working on your husband……..or He is wanting YOU to humble yourself and to see your husband as your husband—and intercede for him and his salvation. I know all this probably seems very strange/out there to you, but I ask you again—please seek the Lord’s face on this. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you if what I am saying is true—-and it won’t be some “weird” thing—the Holy Spirit will lead you to His Word and open your eyes to truth. That is how we “test all things” that come our way.
Let me just apologize for my last email. I do believe that this site is damaging and not all together honest, however such a vitriolic response on my part was unwarranted.
I have been praying consistently for 6 months about this subject. I do feel strongly that God would like for me to share some things with you as well as ask some questions. God wants for me to ask you to carefully read this letter with a slightly open mind.
David and Michal So Michal was David’s wife who was stolen from him. Michal was taken against her own will from her husband. This is not an example of the breaking of the marital bond through willful adultery. Michal was most likely stolen and raped. Of course David wanted her back! Now if Michal had left David or if David had divorced that would be a whole different story. Hoseah This story is a beautiful story of God’s relentless pursuit of His faithless people. On the flip side this story is a terrible portrait of a marriage gone awry. Some important facts to remember when trying to apply this situation to real life: -God COMMANDED Hoseah to marry a prostitute! If God COMMANDED me to marry anyone, including a violent rapist, you better believe I would do it!-God walked Hoseah through the entire process.-This story was meant to bring repentance and a visual aide to the faithless Isrealites.-If God commanded you to marry this woman would you dare turn around and divorce her even though you would have every right to do so? I did’t think so. Hoseah could have divorced Gomer without causing her to commit adultery because she was already an adulteress. God not once says that this story is how He expects all men to conduct themselves in marriage. That was not the point of the story. Just as Romans chapter 7 (discussed later) was NOT truly meant to illustrate a divorce and remarriage situation. God is realistic about His people. He does state that He expects us to ‘suffer’ for Christ. I do not believe that He had marriage in mind when He states this. I believe He meant suffer hardships in the World. A marriage can be absued to the point of breaking and that is not marriage as God intends it to be. Deuteronomy 24
In Deuteronomy 24 Moses makes a concession for the hardness of mens hearts. Basically if a man found some ‘uncleanness’ he would hand his wife a certificate of divorce and she could go and become another mans wife. The some ‘uncleanness’ was a reason the men were ALREADY using in order to divorce their wives, prior to Moses giving this precept. The term uncleanness is vague because it was really just an excuse. God allowed the man to divorce his wife. Once the wife had left the residence she was free to go and become another mans wife. Consequently the woman was absolutely prohibited from ever returning to her first husband because after the divorce and subsequent marriage she had been defiled. How had she been defiled? She had been caused to commit adultery. Since God does not change, this has always and consistently been true. Unfortunately Jesus had to spell this out for the Pharisees. The Pharisees and rabbis of the day had been arguing over what some ‘uncleanness’ meant when really they should have been trying to determine how a second marriage would defile a woman. The 2nd marriage caused her to become an adulteress. This fact has never changed. A few things to note: -Moses made a concession for something that is highly undesirable. Moses did NOT make a concession for something impossible!-The 2nd marriage is valid although born out of adultery. this is evident because the wife is called a wife to the second man and the 2nd
man is called a husband and the union is called a marriage all the while the wife had been defiled by committing adultery(faithlessness).-God referred to the adultery in the case of divorce and remarriage in the OT as a mysterious type of defilement to spare an innocent woman from being condemned to death although she was typically still stigmatized. God said defiled where he could have said she is an adulteress.-The first husband in Det. 24 is considered to be a FORMER husband.
Leviticus 18 I have read this chapter several times over and no where am I able to locate where a divorced woman is not allowed to marry a man who is not a relative. As a matter of fact no where in Leviticus 18 is the word marriage mentioned. This chapter however ties in with what I will say about Herod and Herodias.
Herod and Herodias So I read that the marriage between Herod and Herodias was adulterous and that is why John spoke out against it. This is VERY incorrect and misleading. Herod and Phillip were both uncles to Herodias. According to the Levitical laws mentioned earlier the original marriage between Herodias and Philip is questionable. Next Herod and Herodias both divorced their spouses in order to marry one another. This is also questionable because all parties involved were Jews who were under the Law of Moses, therefore Herodias had no right to divorce her husband. Only the man could divorce his wife. A divorce decree was basically the relinquishing of property rights. When John spoke out against this union it is not even mentioned as being a marriage. Why? Because according to the Levitical laws God would never recognize this union. Again read Leviticus 18 where it speaks of having a living brothers wife. There is no marriage mentioned. Conversely Jesus does refer to a second marriage of a divorced woman as a marriage where she commits adultery in marrying the second time. Do you see the point? Leviticus 18:15 teaches that a brother may not take his living brothers wife. There is no mention of marriage, therefore God would never recognize the relationship as a marriage.
Additionally John was not upset about the union being ‘adulterous’ because he then would have had to have spoken out against many of his peers during this time period as well. Divorce and remarriage were rampant while John was alive. Hence the reason Jesus had to speak out against it on more than one occasion. No doubt many of those John associated with were in a second marriage. John also would have been familiar with the law of Moses which would allow a divorced woman to marry another man so there is absolutely NO way that John was upset because the union was ‘adulterous’. The Bible doesn’t even mention adultery when referring to Herod and Herodias. In fact the term adulterous marriage isn’t Biblical. It’s either a marriage or it isn’t. John was extremely upset that a Jewish leader, familiar with the Jewish law would so blatantly disrespect the God he supposedly represented by taking his brothers wife. We would still view a man marrying his brothers divorced wife as being dishonorable. Perception on this hasn’t really changed much.
Jesus teaching on divorce Jesus speaks about divorce a couple of different times as everyone is aware. The most striking comment on divorce is found in Matthew 5:32. Jesus states that whosoever divorces his wife causes her to become an adulteress! No 2nd marriage is even mentioned! I won’t even get into the so called exception clause and please don’t mention Erasmus. God promised to preserve His word regardless of sinful man and God doesn’t lie! Trying to say that every copy of the Bible in publication today is tainted with faulty info is calling God a liar and just makes it sound like you don’t believe His word so why should anyone else?!
Here is a scenario: Bob marries Jane. This is the first marriage for both. Neither Bob nor Jane are Christians(unimportant fact). Bob divorces Jane. Bob converts to Christianity. Bob seeks to reconcile with Jane. Jane is content to live alone. Is Bob truly forgiven by God even though Jane does not want to reconcile? Is Jane still an adulteress because of Bob? If you are consistent with what your site states then Jane is permanently an adulteress and Bob is the cause. This is also the statement of Matthew 5:32. Will Jane ever be forgiven for her adultery if she doesn’t reconcile? The woman at the well To say that we cannot glean much information from this story is to ignore some facts. This woman had been married five times. We can most assuredly assume that she had been divorced ATLEAST 1 time! If she had been widowed all five times then she would have been considered to be cursed. This is true even in today’s society. Plus what are the odds she was widowed all five times, still young enough to fetch water for herself and still young enough to attract a man who would be willing to shack up with her?! This is impossible.
Seriously don’t deny the fact that she was divorced and yet Jesus refers to all five men as having been (past tense) her husbands! This is consistent with what the Bible teaches. Jesus was pointing out that her word meant nothing to her and she was an adultress but He also recognizes that she does not currently have a man that should be acknowledged as her husband. Plus if she had been widowed would Jesus really have essentially ‘rubbed it in’ by asking her to bring her husband? No! He was pointing out a very messy area of her life. She was divorced I promise that was just one of the things God reveals in the story. If this woman would have been in your care you would have told her exactly what Jesus did NOT tell her to do and that is to remain single or reconcile to the first husband. Jesus placed no such demand on this woman so why do you place this demand on people trying to follow Christ today? Here is another scenario: Judy marries Todd. Todd and Judy divorce. Judy marries Seth. Seth and Judy divorce. Judy marries Bill. After reading your site Judy decides she must divorce Bill and reconcile with Todd. Todd has died. Should Judy return to any of her former husbands, whom she had grown bored of, or does she get off totally free as your site suggests and does she get to pick an entirely new husband?
1 Corinthians 7 Lets face it, the Church of Corinth was a group of ragamuffins. These people practically needed Paul to spell everything out for them. They were getting drunk at the Lord’s supper and praising a member of the Church for sleeping with his (step?)mother (again against Levitical law, no mention of marriage is made and just plain gross). The Church at Corinth was under Roman rule which Paul, being a Roman citizen, was all too familiar with. The Roman lifestyle was one of absolute hedonism. Bestiality, pedophilia, prostitution, idol worship and (I know this will shock and disturb) divorce and remarriage to the nth degree! Please take a moment to absorb the fact that such morally upstanding people would allow for divorce and remarriage. Has the shock worn off? Please continue… So anyway Paul responds to a letter written by the Church at Corinth. The people had been encouraged by some very ascetic teachings. The idea of divorce is obviously something the
people at the Church of Corinth are comfortable with. Paul basically states this(I will paraphrase): Yes being single is good! Being married is good as well! In fact in order to keep you guys away from the local brothel I recommend getting married! To those who aren’t currently married (this very likely includes divorced people as well given the cultural background!) maybe try the single life and serve God! To those who are currently married (no mention of a second, third, fourth or fifth marriage) stay that way. It is no longer ok to divorce one another (contrary to Roman teaching) but if you do divorce from here on out you must stay single or reconcile (notice how he says remain unmarried which still indicates another marriage could happen that would ruin ALL chances of reconciliation!). Moving on…
Don’t divorce your unbelieving spouse! Work it out and win them to Christ! If however the unbeliever leaves don’t fight it. You are not enslaved to the defiant unbeliever! Don’t do anything drastic to change your life situation! Don’t fight the system! Use what ever various state of marriage or unmarriage you may find yourself in to glorify God! Are you currently bound (married/engaged) to a wife? Stay that way! Are you currently loosed(divorced/widowed or released from an engagement) stay that way! But if you do decide in this new cleansed life you have been given to marry then you have not sinned! But remember from here on forward that marriage is a lifetime commitment! Seriously. Notice how Paul doesn’t demand that anyone previously married, divorce his or her current spouse to return to a potentially already remarried pagan spouse?! And why would he recommend they divorce a current spouse to try to reconcile to someone else? Back in 1 Corinthians 6 Paul states that all of the new converts have been cleansed, sanctified, justified. All of this and not one divorce in order to reconcile or repent is mentioned!
Amazing! The Corinthians would not have had access to the words Jesus spoke on marriage and divorce. All that they would have known was what they had been taught (divorce and subsequent marriages were ok in Roman culture!) and yet not even once does Paul suggest the idea of an adulterous marriage or a divorce being necessary
to repent of a past marital failure. I’m shocked. Please be realistic in reviewing 1 Corinthians 7. No I do not believe that this is a blanket statement for all
people that marrying after a divorce is ok, however Paul is telling the Corinthian Church how to conduct themselves in marriage from this day forward! Perhaps how we should be dealing with new converts today?
The early church fathers:
The early church fathers were not entirely unanimous on their position on MDR. Many of the church fathers believed that marriage lasted even beyond death. This is not Biblical at all. Also many of the early church fathers did not believe that the “bigger” sins such as murder or adultery could really be forgiven. Again this is not biblical. There are various other inconsistencies that should be considered before relying too heavily on the interpretations of men versus what the Bible plainly teaches.
Additioanlly please read the following links
Please also read William Heth’s paper about how his mind has changed! Some of the early church fathers were into forms of self denial and self abuse rituals as well as Gnosticism and other unbiblical practices. I was unable to find ANYTHING that states that the early church fathers required a remarried couple to divorce. They did NOT allow remarriage within the church, which is commendable. They did NOT require new converts to divorce if they were already remarried. The closest example I was able to find was some mention of missionaries in the early 1900’s requiring new converts in polygamous relationships to divorce all but their first spouse. I do not agree with this action because again polygamy is not expressliy forbidden in the Bible. Guess what else is no where forbidden in the Bible? REMARRIAGE!
-If divorce does absolutely nothing then why does God hate divorce and why is divorce a sin?
-Why did Jesus not limit His prohibition of divorce and ‘remarriage’ to the first marriage only (this is true because he never made the distinction between a first or second etc marriage)? -Why did Jesus not command all people everywhere who were in a second marriage to return to their original spouse in order to ‘repent’?
-Why does Jesus refer to the 2nd union as a marriage? Was He incorrect? -A person can become ‘one flesh’ with a prostitute. When Paul makes this reference he is quoting Genesis as well as Jesus, yet NO ONE argues that this bond is dissoluble, why? -If two people become a literal ‘one’ in spirit then are they now affected each time their spouse sins in any way? In other words is the spouses soul damaged by the sin of the offending partner?
-If a person becomes “one” with God upon conversion then why is this bond dissoluble while the marriage bond is not?
-If the marriage bond is indissoluble then is it also indestructible?
-If the marriage bond is not indestructible then is it also safe to say that it is not indissoluble?
-If adultery does not (potentially) dissolve the “one flesh” union of marriage then why is adultery even a sin?
-Conversely if adultery DOES cause damage to the marital bond then one would have to admit that there is the potential for the bond to be destroyed through repeated and unrepentant adultery. Let me phrase this in the form of a question: If the marital bond has the potential to be at the very least damaged then wouldn’t it stand to reason that this bond could be destroyed? -When my daughter cleaves tightly to me out of fear are we now inseparable? -When my tongue cleaves to the roof of my mouth will I ever be able to separate the two?
-Is remarriage just a form of polygamy, which is not expressly condemned in the Bible (this is the impression I get from reading your site)? -Is a pastor who ‘repents’ of remarrying couples required to ensure that each and every remarriage he has performed completely dissolved before he can be forgiven? -A man who works as a judge or a justice of the peace converts to Christianity. He has performed perhaps hundreds of ‘remarriage’ ceremonies. Does he simply ask for forgiveness from God or must he make sure each couple is divorced before he is forgiven? -A porn star converts to Christianity. While she was a porn star she signed all of the rights to all of her movies and lewd images to the company that basically owned her. She now repents of all she has ever done but because of technology many of her images and movies are still widely distributed. Will God still forgive her? -An abortion Dr. who has performed somewhere in the thousands of abortion procedures.
Most of these ‘procedures’ were performed because the mother simply did not want the baby. The Dr. one day comes to accept Jesus as his savior. The Dr. never spends one day in jail. Does God really forgive him for just asking? -Here is a personal one: While I was a drug addict I stole merchandise and money in order to supply my drug habit. I was so high on drugs at the time that I couldn’t even begin to tell you what state I was in let alone what I stole. Does God still forgive me for just asking for forgiveness? -Jesus says he desires mercy and not a sacrifice. Was He mistaken? -If the thief on the cross had been remarried would Jesus have sent him to hell? -The people of Ninevah were told to repent, however God makes no mention of divorcing from a remarriage situation (which would have gone against the Law of Moses anyway) Do you think all of the remarried individuals remained adulterers and only they went to hell? -A woman has a child out of wedlock. She cannot take back this one time action of having a child while not married. She becomes a Christian. Does God forgive her circumstances? -The prodigal son committed various types of sin. Do you think the father would not have accepted him back if he had married divorced and remarried while away on his excursions? 1 John 1:19 pretty much sums up what we need to do when we first come to Christ. Jesus no where demands that we try to make ourselves righteous before coming to Him. This would be impossible anyway. If you really need more examples of areas where God simply forgives just by a person asking then please let me know because I will gladly provide
more! It is VERY possible that the term ‘one flesh’ is used for imagery to show how two people should now be functioning through life as one. At best the two souls become like Siamese twins. The two are able to be separated though not without scarring and pain. Souls are bound or knit together but they are still two unique individuals who can function in unison and harmony. If the two people literally became one in spirit as literally as you take it to be, then they would no longer have an individual mind, emotion or will. This would be strange. Jesus obviously says let not man separate rather than man cannot separate what God has joined together. Again a similar language is used in 1 Corinthians where Paul says a husband should not divorce his wife. Notice Paul doesn’t say it’s impossible to divorce. Paul also says that the divorced woman must remain unmarried. He refers to her as being in an unmarried state if she divorces and says she must remain that way or reconcile. This indicates that she could potentially be united to another in marriage. This of course would make her an adulteress according to Romans chapter 7. In Romans chapter 7 in the New King James version Paul states that the woman MARRIES another man while her husband is alive and this makes her an adultress. Paul does not say that another divorce would rectify the adultery. She is now an adulteress and yet her second union is called a marriage. No matter what the woman does from here on out in her life she has committed adultery. Something else interesting about Romans chapter 7 in the NASB, in the first three verses of the chapter the word law is lower case. In the following verses the word law(Law) is uppercase. The lower case law is a changeable version of the law. The upper case indicates God’s unchanging Law. This is just something to check out. Please please be aware that although it is admirable that you hold the covenant of
marriage in such high regard, telling people to commit more sin in order to be right with God is inaccurate.
Would not the 2nd marriage still require a divorce? Yes the marriage is born out of sin but this is no different than a child being born out of wedlock. The adultery that is committed when a person remarries does not change. The person commited adultery and a 2nd divorce does not change this. In fact should the person divorce again they will now have proven that they cannot be faithful a second time around. Adultery is faithlessness. God is better than fair in ALL circumstances. If He stopped at being just ‘fair’ you, I, and everyone else in the World would go directly to hell. He knows our frame and is all too familiar and patient with our stupidity and ignorance. What has God spoken to me in the last six months? That every marital situation requires prayer. Regardless of a first, second or so on marriage. He desires an intimate relationship with us. He wants for us to turn to Him NOW even in the midst of sin. This is true. Don’t delay. He can cleanse all things just let Him do His job. Also, Jesus knew that not all people at all times and everywhere would be able to know His teaching on marriage and divorce. This is largely why He gives His message to Paul to deliver to the Church of Corinth. Yes Jesus applies the same rule to all men however He never, not even one time, tells a person to leave his or her current spouse in order to ‘fully’ repent! After much study I have come to the conclusion that there are no Biblical grounds for divorce. This is true. Divorce is always sinful, a sign of
faithlessness and giving up. Remarriage is always sinful. However remarriage is still a marriage! Always and consistently throughout the Bible a second, third, fourth or fifth marriage between an unrelated man and woman is called a MARRIAGE! God doesn’t lie, God chooses his words carefully and He most certainly doesn’t make mistakes. I seriously have more to say and I am interested if you will respond or post something like this on your site.
Dear Katherine, I have read through your email and understand your concerns. I feel all of your concerns have been addressed by the site in the FAQ.
I do see many “emotional” type reasonings in your arguments. There really is no place for emotional reasonings when we are trying to discern the Will of God within His written Word to us. We have to take Him at His Word. You believe we are called to suffer, yet not with our marriages? Where do you see this “exemption of suffering in marriage” in scripture? Actually, we find that some may be left SINGLE—either their whole lives (after departing from their spouses) or working towards reconciliation (I Cor. 7:10-11). We also see in scripture where the saved wife, by her life, can effect a husband who is disobedient (and you can be sure there is “suffering” on her part within such a marriage). You brought up Hosea—-He is most certainly an example of one who suffered in his marriage–for the GLORY of God, not his own comfort. Same with Job. Marriage—covenant marriage—is a picture of Jesus and His Church. This picture was seen in Hosea/Gomer. It is not only for a select few who are called—–ALL who have Jesus dwelling WITHIN them are called to this type of self-sacrificial love towards their spouse—in the good
times AND bad.
Regarding your “stay as you are” belief. Surely you would not say homosexuals who are LEGALLY married should “stay as you are”? If you wouldn’t say that, why do you believe adulterers (who are legally married) should—-“stay as you are”? Does the piece of paper change what Jesus has said about the nature of the relationship, Katherine? If Jesus says, “whosoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery and whosoever marries her that is divorced commits adultery”—-why do you then say such is a VALID marriage? Did Jesus say He joined the adulterers as One flesh and dissolved the previous One Flesh bond? No. Jesus says those who remarry as well as those who marry the divorced are committing adultery with SOMEONE ELSE’S SPOUSE. Is this “loving your neighbor as yourself”?
the only way the second marriage is a legitimate marriage is AFTER the death of an original spouse (I Cor. 7:39, Rom. 7:2-3).
You address polygamous marriage as being legitimate marriage. Did Jesus say 1 man + 2 women=one flesh? No, He brought marriage BACK to creation: 1 man+1woman=One flesh (the one flesh created by God, not man). He did not reteach Deut. 24 to His disciples. He said something VERY different to them. So different they were shocked by His teaching. They thought it better to NEVER marry!!! There are NO OUTS given as Deut. 24 did. This is the very first time, throughout ALL of scripture where they ever heard that remarriage=adultery. You will not find ONE instance of this being taught in the OT.
As to the Early Church Fathers, you are right in that they did teach some WRONG things (ie; one in particular (Tertullian) taught marriage lasted AFTER death, which is NOT biblically supported). However, regarding REMARRIAGE, the early church taught they were INVALID marriages. If a marriage is INVALID that means God is not in it. If God did not join it as One Flesh, it is IMMORAL and to be forsaken, as any immoral sexual relationship. They didn’t teach against homosexual relationships/marriage (though those too were common in Roman culture). The Church KNEW such relationships were SINFUL and needed to be repented of.
Regarding David/Michal—–she was his covenant wife—that’s why he took her away from her second husband. Her second marriage did not dissolve her 1st marriage. There is absolutely no indication she was “raped” as you say. As a matter of fact her second husband appears to have loved her deeply, crying after her when she was taken………….and she sure didn’t seem to hold warm feelings for David either. Actually, she seems to have held contempt towards him.
Regarding Herod/Herodias I encourage you to read Josephus’ account. The scandal was that Herodias married while her husband was still alive. Why if divorce permitted remarriage? The fact is this: in scripture, John calls Herodias PHILIP’S wife, not Herod’s. “It is not lawful for you to have”—clearly means it is an UNLAWFUL/INVALID marriage. She STILL belonged to Philip in the eyes of the Lord. That infuriated her to the extent she wanted John DEAD and worked to that end.
Today, I see the SAME murderous spirit in those who want to protect INVALID marriages and discount the Words of our Lord. They come out attacking those who are trying to focus on God’s Word and not on personal experiences, feelings, etc. The truth is this: nowhere in all of the NT will we find where He EVER accepts as valid those relationships HE has said are adultery/adulterous. Yet many bible “teachers” and such will maintain that He DOES accept the relationships HE HIMSELF has defined as sinful/immoral/invalid. Confession of sin merely is a coming into alignment with God’s mindset on sin. Repentance then is the acceptance of God’s mindset on sin and then TURNING AWAY FROM ALL THAT IS UNHOLY, SINFUL in HIS SIGHT.
In the many scenarios you gave, you did not give illustrations of those CONTINUING in sinful relationships, actions, etc. You gave examples of those who CHANGED their course—committed sins in the PAST, yet were not continuing to do the same things. THAT is repentance, Katherine. Repentance is NOT confession, then STAYING in a relationship the Lord Himself is sinful/invalid, etc. Repentance is LEAVING that which is unholy………..leaving the sin behind. THIS is true repentance. If an adulterer comes to faith and SEES their sin, they LEAVE their adulterous relationship—they do not try to REDEFINE it according to their own wants/desires/comfort, societal acceptance, etc. It is absolutely NO different than the homosexual today who has adopted children with their partner, getting legally recognized as being in a “marriage”, etc. When they come to faith, they LEAVE the INVALID marriage. They dont’ take a popular vote to see if others think they should stay together, then don’t rest in what modern society has legalized as AOK—–they TAKE GOD AT HIS WORD REGARDING HOW HE VIEWS THEIR RELATIONSHIP. They see Jesus and Paul both preaching the immoral will NOT inherit the kingdom of God, but will find themselves shut out of the kingdom and in the lake of fire. It is THAT serious, Katherine. I pray you will consider what I have shared with you. It seems as if you are truly seeking to understand His Will in this. Blessings…..
In all of your responses I don’t get the feeling you truly read my initial email.
I did read it. As I stated, there was nothing in your email that has not been addressed in the multitude of questions/responses on the FAQ. If perhaps I did miss something, I will be glad to address it. I think the issue really boils down to you wanting to believe that STAYING in adultery is ok with the Lord or somehow what He has said is adultery morphs into a lawful, joined by Him as one flesh, marriage.
Katherine, I am affiliated not only with those who have repented (forsaken) adulterous “marriages”, I am also very connected to many, many “standers”—those from original marriages who are standing faithfully for the restoration of their marriage. In many cases, their spouses have married others. I often ask people to consider this: who does Jesus view as the legitimate spouse in such cases—the original spouse who is remaining faithful to their vows, God, and their spouse……….or the person Jesus says the spouse is committing adultery with? Does the state determine who is a spouse and who is a partner in adultery or does the Lord determine this?
The Bible, Gods word, still calls a second marriage a marriage. Even as a child born out of sin is still a child, so a marriage born out of sin is still called a marriage. I agree with God that it is still a marriage.
“Whosoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery (has unlawful relations with a woman who is NOT his wife) and whosoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery (has unlawful relations with another man’s wife).” Lk 16:18
Again, Jesus is very clear that divorced people are committing adultery with people who are NOT their spouses. You say they ARE their spouses?
He says they MARRY! Its still marrying. Its still a marriage born out of sin. Besides read Matthew 5 where no mention is made of a second marriage and the woman is still caused to commit adultery. No marriage just a divorce and boom she commits adultery.
Yes, they do marry, but Jesus calls it ADULTERY. Why? Because one or both are STILL joined to their ORIGINAL spouse. The divorce did NOT dissolve their union, hence it is no different to “marry” another after a divorce than it is to have an extra-marital affair. Man may legalize such a practice, but God has spoken, Katherine.
But Jesus calls it a marriage. Just like a child born out of wedlock will always and forever be born from a sinful union so a marriage born out of sin is still called a marriage. This doesn’t explain the woman in Matthew 5 who is divorced and now commits adultery even though she may not marry another.
Where does Jesus ever call it a legitimate marriage, Katherine? He says they commit adultery (they are “having unlawful relations with those who are NOT their spouses”—-the definition of adultery). How can one commit adultery with the one they are LAWFULLY (acknowledged by God as such) married to? They cannot. Homosexuals are now marrying. Are these “marriages” lawful to God—-joined by Him as One Flesh?
As for Mt. 5, the charge really is against the husband because if he puts her away and she ISN’T guilty, he makes her APPEAR guilty to others…….or as many teach this to mean: women back in that day NEEDED a husband for support, so the husband putting away an innocent woman CAUSES her to commit adultery by marrying another man (so she can be cared for).
In any case, Jesus made it clear that divorce did not dissolve the marriages created by Him as One Flesh, that is why it is ADULTERY to join oneself to someone else’s spouse or to leave your spouse and join to another person—-because those who are “no longer two” are NOT free to be with anyone other than who the Lord joined them to—it does not matter what laws man passes to try to circumvent God’s ways—whether it be in trying to legitimize adultery or homosexuality.
Does Jesus say they marry?
Are homosexuals married, Katherine?
Not according to Gods word. God only says that those relations are essentially a man laying with a man as he would a woman. I see no mention of marriage.
Do you see anywhere in scripture where ADULTERY=lawful marriage either? Do you see anywhere in scripture where an ADULTEROUS marriage negates/nullifies a LEGITIMATE marriage?
I see where in Gods word a second marriage is still called marriage. That is what I see.
In the NT? You believe Jesus joins those He charges with adultery and then He dissolves the previous union He made one flesh? I think you have not thought this whole thing out, Katherine, nor have taken the whole of God’s Word into consideration. It seems you WANT to believe a remarriage is legitimate in God’s eyes, not because scripture teaches it, but because that is how you want things to be.
It seems to me that you deny that the word marriage is used. Born out of sin just as a child is born out of sin when two uncommited people fornicate. Jesus calls it marriage. That’s not me, its God calling it Marriage. So back to matt. 5. The woman now commits adultery whether she MARRIES or not.
No, I don’t’ deny “marries another” is in the text. I deny that the “marriage” is legitimate in God’s eyes. Jesus says, “marries another” = adultery (to have unlawful relations with ANOTHER person’s spouse). The Early Church (pre 100ad-300ad) viewed such unions as INVALID marriages—-meaning God had nothing to do with them. He did not join the two as one flesh. You will find this same exact teaching in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer for marriages section (written in the 1600’s):
“And also, speaking unto the persons that shall be married, he shall say, I REQUIRE and charge you both, as ye will answer at the dreadful day of judgement when the secrets of all hearts shall be disclosed, that if either of you know any impediment, why ye may not be lawfully joined together in Matrimony, ye do now confess it. For be ye well assured, that so many as are coupled together otherwise than God’s Word doth allow are not joined together by God; neither is their Matrimony lawful.”
It is clear from Jesus’ teachings as well as Paul’s, that marriages joined by God are joined “until death do us part” (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor.7:39). No other
relationship: polygamy, adulterous, homosexual, other forms of fornication (unmarrieds, incest, etc) are lawful relationships in the eyes of the Lord.
Its still a marriage born from sin. Gods word is accurate. Its not fair, its not right, but its still a husband and wife married from sin. Just as God blesses two drunk, uncommitted fornicators with a beautiful child born out of sin, so He acknowledges in His infalliable Word that two unrelated people of the opposite sex are MARRIED even if the MARRIAGE is born out of sin. Still a MARRIAGE still a child. Both born from sinful unions but both still called by God to be a MARRIAGE and still a child!
Katherine, you have no scriptural support for your view, believing that God has to honor sin. I think you KNOW the Lord is speaking to you, but you are resisting, wanting to believe you are right when scripture is shouting at you that you are not right in this. You KNOW you can’t explain scripturally how it is wrong for STANDERS—those praying faithfully for their spouses to repent of adultery(remarriage)—to have THEIR family restored—the family God DID put together. You know you cannot find one scripture where a second union (or third, forth, etc) nullifies/dissolves/does away with the bond of the first union, which was created by God. You know, scripturally speaking, there is no support that remarriage adultery is somehow “different” than extra-marital adultery.
I contend that God recognizes all marriages between one unrelated man and one unrelated woman including those born out of adultery and those that are polygamous. How do you explain the husband of one wife and a widow that was only married once?
“Whosoever divorces his wife and marries another commits ADULTERY and whosoever marries her that is divorced commits ADULTERY”. Lk 16:16-18
Katherine, it doesn’t matter that you contend anything, if it opposes what Jesus taught. Marriage to another AFTER a divorce is ADULTERY. Adultery is defined: to have UNLAWFUL relations with one who is NOT………….again, NOT, your spouse.
You contend such a one IS your spouse. Jesus says differently. He is judge. We don’t get to change His “rules”. Marriage is until DEATH (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39).
If one joins with ANOTHER prior to this time, they will be LABELLED an ADULTERER/ADULTERESS. ADULTERY does NOT =marriage in the sight of God. God does not JOIN as ONE FLESH, those He states are committing sin. Polygamy is not permissible anymore either. Did not Jesus say: one man+one woman=one flesh. Did He not say even looking on a woman with lust is ADULTERY. If one looks on another woman to “wife” her, he is committing adultery in the Lord’s sight against HIS COVENANT WIFE.
Katherine, we will NOT agree on this. There is NOTHING in scripture to justify adultery…………or remaining IN ADULTERY. There are MANY passages that speak to the end result of those who do not repent of adultery, but continue in it. I pray instead of arguing with me, with no scripture to support your view, you seek the face of God—-HARD, because you are very wrong and your salvation is dependent on what you decide to do or not do.
Blessings as you seek His Face…………..
I think you are upset because you are telling people to correct sin with more sin. Prescribing that two people who sinned by marrying now divorce in order to ‘correct’ their sin, is equal to telling the woman pregnant out of wedlock to abort her baby to ‘correct’ her sin.
I think I already discussed the pregnant woman situation. Her sin is PAST unless she is continuing to live in fornication. If she is TRULY repentant, she will stop living in fornication. She will either get married if she is free to marry (and the man is free to marry) or she will remain single and celibate. To get an abortion is MURDER, another grievous sin.
BTW, I am not upset at all. What I am seeing is that you appear to me to be like a child with it’s finger in her ear, saying, “la, la, la, I’m not listening to you” regarding the ADULTERY Jesus says people commit when they marry after a divorce. You keep insisting it’s a valid marriage. Jesus says it’s adultery. Yes, they “marry”, but it’s not valid because they are ALREADY joined to another—–like BIGAMY, which is illegal in our country. In such cases, the people MARRY, but it’s not a VALID marriage. Same thing with remarriage after a divorce.
As for the husband of one wife, yes, that is the STANDARD for Christians. The elders/leaders in the church are supposed to set the standard, not live a “higher” standard than what is expected for Christians. Being the husband of more than one wife is not the standard for ANY Christian. Scripture says it is SIN (adultery). Marriage is between one man, one woman, for life—per Jesus.
As for me, or the many others now who are repenting of adultery, divorce is not the sin. Divorce is the ANSWER for the sin of ADULTERY. It is an act of repentance, to forsake a relationship the Lord has not joined as one flesh, but instead, has called ADULTERY. He has charged one or both of them as living with someone else’s spouse or deserting the one He joined them to to live in adultery. Again, adulterous marriage is no more legal in God’s eyes than Bigamy is legal in man’s eyes.
Both are INVALID marriages.
We need to remember this: Adultery in the OT was a STONABLE offense. Jesus labels remarriage after divorce ADULTERY. Why? Because one or both parties are ALREADY married to another IN HIS EYES. Do you actually believe He now CONDONES that which once He gave the DEATH penalty for? The only diff between the OT and NT regarding adultery is this: NOW He has given man the ABILITY to forsake his sin and LIVE. In the OT, there was no LIFE if one was caught in adultery—it was death. And it was that DEATH which freed the parties to be married to others. Just as it is DEATH in the NT which frees the parties to be married to others.
Cindy, it’s fathers day, reconcile with your husband. You forged a relationship outside of Gods perfect and sovereign will. You committed adultery in doing so. You are now an adulteress and a wife just as a woman can be a fornicator and simultaneously blessed with the title of mother. Your salvation is not born of you it’s born of God. Sometimes these unions such as the parent child relationship and the husband wife relationship are born out of sin. These relationships are real though. No amount of scrambling around will change that. Your husband is now the husband of more than one wife and unfit to lead a congregation. He is however still fit to be your husband and a child of God. Jesus loves you and He desires mercy and not a sacrifice.
Katherine, I am in an intact marriage—24 years this year. I am in a covenant marriage. However, there are many I know who are divorced from covenant spouses and standing for their marriages to be reconciled as well as those who have been convicted by God’s Word and have left their adulteries. I stand together with them, acknowledging they are following the true faith, in obedience to the Lord.
So the husband of one wife is really a requirement to be a Christian? So people outside of Christianity can in fact have more than one wife as recognized by God? God seems to be alluding to the FACT that a person can have more than one spouse and that would disqualify them from leadership. Weird that God might be deceptive like that. Your friends who have left a ‘sinful’ MARRIAGE are like a person abandoning their illegitimate BABY and praying for God to revive the legitimate still born.
Your analogies about babies/parents do not fit those who are practicing adultery, Katherine. I’m not sure why you keep using that illustration. A child IS yours. If one is in adultery, the “spouse” does NOT belong to you, they belong to the one God joined them to. You seem to be leaving God out of the marital equation, thinking He is merely an observer and therefore when an INVALID union takes place, He then has to accept it.
A person leaving an INVALID ADULTEROUS marriage is no different than one forsaking a homosexual “marriage”, an extramarital affair (yes, even when children are involved), a bigamous “marriage”, an incestual “marriage”, a polygamous marriage……because God NEVER joined any of these relationships as One Flesh.
A Christian is to be an EXAMPLE of holiness, of Christ-likeness. Jesus is not an adulterer. He is not a fornicator, a homosexual, a polygamist, a bigamist, etc. He is faithful—-always. When the world looks at Christians, they should see JESUS, not those who look just like them, in their sin. The problem is however, many who name the name of Christ are not even saved—-they are led by the Flesh, not the Spirit and their lives give evidence of this.
The parallel is this, a baby/marriage born/forged out of sin is still a baby/marriage. Homosexuals in fact cannot marry we have already established that and the husband of one wife means that there could in fact be another marriage recognized by God that would disqualify for leadership. I don’t think you can disagree with that. One last question, why in the NASB in Romans chapter 7, in the first 3 verses is the word law lower case and in the following verses is Law uppercase?
Homosexuals can and DO marry, Katherine. Husband of one wife does NOT in fact mean there is another marriage recognized by God. That is how you want to see it, but that is not what that text or the many other texts on marriage support. The reality is this: He may recognize the relationship: as adultery, but He does not recognize it as a VALID marriage.
As for the NASB? I Cor. 7:39 is a reference to Rom. 7:2-3, regarding the marriage LAW—for all of mankind. Read Luke 16:16-18 and ask yourself why that passage is put right there in that exact spot in scripture.
The husband of one wife bears a significance you want to overlook, also the widow only married once bears significance. The fact that adultery in matt. 5 has nothing to do with illicit relations is significant, the fact that in all reference to divorce the term MARRIES another is used where MARRIAGE is never used to describe unlawful unions elsewhere and remaining as a person is called in regards to MARRIAGE has significance.
Katherine, you ignore ADULTERY and try to set the discussion off on issues that in reality, do not change one iota what Jesus says about remarriage=adultery. You ignore the definition of adultery and say it is not true—that the one who commits adultery really IS a lawful spouse in God’s eyes. You are irrational in your reasonings, trying to see something that is just not there—-but that is the nature of trying to justify one’s sins—the grasping at straws and ignoring of those passages which clearly show sin, clearly show that although marrying(an act) is taking place, one or both parties are UNLAWFULLY joining themselves to OTHER’s spouses. I didn’t say it or make it up—Jesus said it—and His disciples were shocked at His words. The early church didn’t make up the INVALID marriage teaching. Scripture teaches it. Again, you can deny it all you like, that is your prerogative. I do hope, like I said, you will stop trying to argue with me and get in God’s Word and ask Him to help you RIGHTLY discern His Word.
I have acknowledged adultery. I have asked you many questions that you refuse to look up and cross reference or just don’t have an answer for. I don’t care about the fallible teachings of the early church. I care about the Bible. So husband of one wife, widower only married once, Romans chapter 7 in the NASB you have failed to respond. Also when Jesus says a “wicked and adulterous people desire a sign…” he is speaking to a group of remarried people huh? And in Matt. 5 where no illicit union is mentioned He just forgot to mention that? Odd. See I am quoting Jesus and scripture however you are not looking these things up. You said homosexuals MARRY and I contend that not once is that union referred to as a marriage by the Bible. Yet Jesus does say that in FACT the remarried couple do MARRY.
So strange that Jesus would be wrong. o weird that the husband of one wife is according to Cindy, a fallacy. How bizarre that a widower only married once is according to Cindy the only truth that exists and yet God’s word says otherwise. See I agree with God. You deny this but here it is again, I AGREE WITH GOD.
Katherine, you have not acknowledged adultery. You seem to think adultery as used by Jesus and Paul means the spouse is now yours because a ceremony took place.
Adultery by definition means: to have UNLAWFUL relations with one who is not your spouse. NOT YOUR SPOUSE. How then does that person become your spouse? It IS no different than homosexuals marrying. They can have a CEREMONY, but that ceremony does not make them spouses to each other IN GOD’S EYES. REMARRIAGE ADULTERY is exactly the same thing. Jesus is dealing with divorce/remarriage and the practices of man in the OT. He teaches them a NEW thing. His Disciples are shocked. They then say it is BETTER to NEVER marry. You say it is ok to marry and transgress what Jesus says. Who is right, you or the disciples? They know the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. They know Jesus said many will come to Him in that day, saying, “Lord, Lord……….didn’t I do this/that in your
name”…………and He will then REJECT them as workers of LAWLESSNESS (law
So, because you will deny this, believing the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, whatever person becomes a LAWFUL spouse because they marry, to me, all the other stuff you are bringing forth is pointless because you will not accept the 1st most important point. It is like trying to discuss how a woman should lead a modest life as a Christian and she is not even saved yet. The foundation must FIRST be built. You have not proven your case that a second/third/etc marriage nullifies the first marriage. You have not proven that other “marriages” made after a first marriage, while the first spouse is still living, are VALID marriages in the Lord’s sight. You have not proven that those who “marry” are not in fact in adulterous relationships (ongoing adultery, which if continued will lead to eternal condemnation).
Cindy I have acknowledged adultery. Are you actually reading what I wrote? Jesus says “a wicked and ADUTEROUS people desire a sign…” He also says the woman in matt. 5 commits adultery without making mention of an illicit second union. If you don’t have an answer that’s fine, but please take the time to reread what I’ve wrote before responding. Please take the time to thoroughly and accurately respond or don’t bother.
Katherine, when does it STOP being adultery? (the second marriage). Yes, a wicked and ADULTEROUS generation DOES seek a sign—we are living in that day. We are the most ADULTEROUS generation probably ever to live upon the earth, except possibly the generation God destroyed with the flood. Jesus in Mt. 5 never goes into detail about the “causes her to commit adultery”. I have already addressed 2 different scenerios, so I DID provide an answer………I dont’ think you are reading my responses. It seems like you dont’ like my responses, therefore say I don’t answer you??? I am very curious why you are desiring to banter back and forth with me.
You cannot possibly change my mind because the Lord is the one who changed it in the first place. He opened my eyes to the state of much of professing Christianity today and how many who call themselves Christians ARE part of the ADULTEROUS GENERATION.
However, I am greatly encouraged to see more and more people repent of adulterous unions. I am greatly encouraged to see more and more sold out believers understanding what it TRULY means to “love your brother as yourself” in regards to entering into adultery,or loving their spouses, or NOT wanting to cause others to sin by entering into adultery or staying in adultery with them. I am greatly encouraged to see some pastors returning to the Bible for their doctrine on divorce/remarriage, not cultural practices which have crept into the churches of today.
To lead a holy life just means to live separate, not perfect. I said it is WRONG to SPECULATE that a person is not seeking Gods face not that it is wrong to suggest that they do so. I do not disagree that Christians should not be divorcing and remarrying. It is wrong.
Separate from what, Katherine?
People can forsake sin but not always the responsibility related to that sin such as in a parent child relationship born out of illicit sex. They can stop fornicating but they cannot stop what the product of the fornication was/is.
Of course people need to take responsibility for the RESULTS of their sin. If a child has been born out of wedlock—through fornication, adultery, homosexual doption—that child is STILL to be cared for by BOTH parents. As you also said, they need to forsake the SIN (adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc).
The same is true of remarriage. Paul and Jesus do state that a new ‘marriage’ is in fact born out of adultery. They constantly say and MARRIES another, commits adultery; as in commits adultery in MARRYING another. They commit adultery in the process.
Jesus and Paul never say such a thing (the marriage is “born” out of adultery). They both call the union: adultery (having UNLAWFUL relations with one who is NOT your spouse). Again, you are ignoring the definition of adultery and trying to create your own definition. One can’t be “committing adultery”against one’s spouse AND be joined by God to another woman/man in marriage………..as Mark 10 says (committeth adultery against HER—his LAWFUL wife). Never does Jesus or Paul speak of this new union as a valid marriage or the persons involved, lawful wives or husbands. They both say the participants are ADULTERERS/ADULTERESSES. Paul even makes it more clear by saying “as long as her husband liveth”. If a wife joins with another man WHILE HER HUSBAND is living, she shall be called an adulteress (a label), not a one time act of sin.
They commit adultery in the process.
So as they are committing adultery, “in the process”, God is joining them as One flesh? Where would I find such a thing in the NT?
Has having a child outside of wedlock ever been ok with God? Yet we do not recommend repentance other than caring for the baby and to stop fornicating. The prescription should be the same for those who commited adultery to form a new marriage. They should remain, take care of any obligations from a previous marriage (any obligations to any previously born legitimate children).
Look at the inconsistency you just wrote. In the case of fornication, you say they should STOP fornicating. However, concerning adulterous unions, you say they should STAY together. Again I ask you: what CHANGES to make the adulterous union no longer adultery? If one or both persons are NOT free to marry others, what changes to allow them to marry others and NOT continue committing adultery as long as they stay together?
God doesn’t legitimize the marriage just as he doesn’t legitimize the baby, however he now calls the adulterers husband and wife and the fornicators are called mother and father.
Can you give me the NT verses where God says the adulterers are husband and wife to each other?
If you can in fact dispute this that Paul and Jesus both spoke out against the act of remarriage as adultery however they both use the term marriage to describe it then I will admit to being wrong about God’s word.
You are wrong, Katherine. I brought out this inconsistency before and you did not “admit you were wrong”. You keep repeating how the union is a “marriage” described as such by Jesus and Paul. Neither of them EVER refer to the adulterous union as a “marriage”—they only speak of the ACT of wedding each other……….which both say is sin and makes each party now sinners in the eyes of God.
just as if the question from the Pharisees could have been “is it lawful to have sex , or children, for any and every reason?” Jesus response would have been very similar.
But that was NOT their question. This is what I mean by going off on a bunny trail. Stick to the EXACT words of Jesus and Paul. We don’t need analogies that are not even valid analogies to understand what they mean. Their writings are pretty clearly stated.
No, sex is supposed to happen between one married man and one married woman. The two become one. The children are legitimate etc… anyone who does other wise (i.e.has sex with someone they are not yet married to, has children outside of wedlock etc…) commits fornication in the process. Begin to substitute the words adultery for fornication where Jesus spoke on this matter and the word child for marriage and it will begin to make sense. No justification is being made. I am in fact in agreement with God.
The desciples reaction can be explained like this: For the first few thousand years leading up to Jesus men and women had been divorcing at will and marrying others. It was now being revealed they they commit adultery (i.e. become defiled, Deut. 24) in the process. I still think the disciples didn’t quite get that what Jesus was saying was not a new truth but in fact what had always and consistently been true. Always throughout the NT the disciples were shocked, amazed horrified and in need of clarification as to what Jesus was teaching. Their reaction to divorce and remarriage is not different. They were after all mere men. People today still don’t get that Jesus was clarifying that the defilement of Deut. 24 is ADULTERY. God does not change the rules at midway. He is consistent, however if He would have said adultery instead of defilement in the OT then people would have had to have been stoned to death.
That makes absolutely no sense at all, Katherine. God, in the OT, DID impose the death penalty for adultery. Adulterers were stoned to death—no ifs ands or buts (though David did get away with not being stoned). In the NT we see Jesus handling a woman caught in adultery—did He institute the DEATH penalty? No. How about Hosea and Gomer? Did she suffer the death penalty? No. God wants repentance and restoration. Jesus was NOT speaking about adultery in the NT=defilement of Deut..24.
Jesus again, did not go back to the law of Moses, He went back to CREATION. Divorce of one’s covenant spouse was spoken by Jesus as an act of HARD HEARTEDNESS. Jesus did not give any concessions for hard heartedness. Matter of fact, Jesus plainly taught that if a person does not forgive others, they will not be forgiven by the Father. The reality is the Disciples understood what Jesus said……..that there are NO outs to marriage. If you took one, you would then be in sin in His sight. They, even later in private, asked Him again about this same thing and He made it clear: there are no OUTS. If one divorces their spouse and marries another, they commit adultery (Mk 10:10-12). In Lk 16:16-18, Jesus again makes it clear this “law” stands. Paul in Rom. 7:2-3 and I Cor. 7:39 made it even more clear: this marriage law, stands—until one spouse dies, freeing the other to be joined to another spouse.
I regards to the Early Church and illegitimate marriage, guess how this all ties in? Illegitimate children in the Early Catholic Church were deemed invalid and not allowed to be baptized. They were considered damned from the get go. Since when was the Early Church correct in everything they taught?
I did not say the Roman Catholic Church. I said the EARLY CHURCH (pre 100ad-300ad). Were all of them right on every topic? No. They, however, CONSISTANTLY taught the SAME thing in regards to the permanency of marriage. It is for LIFE. To marry another is to become an adulterer. To marry another is to enter into an INVALID marriage. God has no part in INVALID marriage. Even if the laws of the land accept it, God does not.
My questions in regards to to Romans chapter 7 (reference the NASB), the husband of one wife, a widower married once have not been answered.
I’ve already discussed Rom. 7 numerous times, I addressed the husband of one wife………..the widower married once?? Really, in regards to the last, what does that have to do with adultery?
Life is like this Cindy, your adversary the lion is on the prowl, looking for whom he may devour. Put it this way, you and I are swimming in shark infested waters. The sharks represent sin in our lives, just as the lion represents sin. How do we completly turn away from the sin (sharks, lions) and turn to God at the same time? If we run from the lion does he not pursue us and become an ever present threat? We are called to be holy (seperate) not perfect.
My conclusions have been drawn through much prayer and study too so to speculate that some how the information you have received is more accurate is debatable, hence these questions.
The woman in the video you sent is she in fact the operator?
No, she is a different woman who repented from adultery.
Could you maybe have her respond or someone else? I am just seeking for someone to actually show me where I am incorrect rather than to just state so. And I am also not trying to be rude. The problem is this, after praying God showed me the freedom and love he has for me. Did bless some pretty disgusting sinful acts in my life, almost like a reward? Yes. I now have two children born by different men and outside of the bounds of marriage. Did I deserve to have them? No! I will never be able to earn my children, just as I cannot earn my salvation from a very sordid and sinful life. I cannot earn the husband I married and and committed adultery in doing so. Please think about what I am saying. I promise that the questions I am posing are straight from the Lord. If it might be easier to just call me (either you or someone else) then my number is ###-###-####. I have a lot to share about my life and what God has in fact shown me that may surprise you.
Also I want to point out that I have repeatedly said that God is NOT ok with marrying someone else with a former spouse living. It is the difference between His perfect will and His permissive will. Also to ‘justify’ sin is to declare it righteous. When did I once declare my actions righteous? There is not one righteous and my sacrifices are like filthy rags. Let me ask you where in the Bible does God say that ALL marriages are covenants? When does an illegitimate child born out of wedlock stop being illegitimate?
Again, Katherine, having illegitimate children is FAR, FAR different than taking another woman’s husband as your own or forsaking the man God joined you to for life and replacing him with another man of your choosing. The “earning” part makes no sense. Earning children born out of wedlock? They were a result of your sin. Are they a blessing NOW? Yes, I believe children born out of fornication, adultery, rape, etc ARE a blessing……..but that is APART from the immorality that caused them. Earning a man who does not belong to you in the Lord’s sight? That does not fly any way you want to spin it, Katherine. Adultery is joining yourself with someone who does not belong to you or who belongs to another. I have thought about what you have shared and your thinking/questions/positions do not align with God’s Word–at all. Your analogies or examples are just plain inconsistent. You do not stick with the EXACT wording of scripture, but reinterpret it with your own words and say, “Jesus said this……..or Paul said that” when they most definitely did not say what you are presenting.
I will pass your latest letter on to a few ladies I know who have repented from adultery. In the meantime, I will be praying the Lord show you your inconsistencies and that you focus on the EXACT WORD of God instead of using all these examples that have no bearing on the discussion.